tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17567408.post115164505778963181..comments2024-03-22T02:18:51.762-07:00Comments on The Art of Amazement Blog: Burying BubbeRabbi Seinfeldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09519288133566248280noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17567408.post-1159387526758542002006-09-27T13:05:00.000-07:002006-09-27T13:05:00.000-07:00Re crypt/mausoleum vs. in-ground burial. Anon is ...Re crypt/mausoleum vs. in-ground burial. Anon is mistaken in that Jews buried in crypts alone. What they did in Talmudic times, is bury in the ground, then after a year or so, bury the bones in an ossuary -- and that was in a crypt (e.g. Beit Shearim). But there was in-ground burial first.<BR/><BR/>LPAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17567408.post-1151940727061824962006-07-03T08:32:00.000-07:002006-07-03T08:32:00.000-07:00Suzanne, it seems that the neshama cannot get its ...Suzanne, it seems that the neshama cannot get its rest until the body is in the ground. <BR/><BR/>(I am still in California until the end of shiva, so do not have access to my books. If you remind me I can look up the reference for you in a week.)Rabbi Seinfeldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09519288133566248280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17567408.post-1151938491990217382006-07-03T07:54:00.000-07:002006-07-03T07:54:00.000-07:00RabbiI'm sorry for your loss. I understand how you...Rabbi<BR/><BR/>I'm sorry for your loss. I understand how you would follow your conscience rather than Bubbe's wishes as far as burial.<BR/><BR/>What bothers me is this: How much longer would it take for the soul to leave the body if it were laid to rest in a crypt rather than buried in a Jewish manner? Is it for a long enough time that it would make sense to supersede Bubbe's wishes?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17567408.post-1151686333277035672006-06-30T09:52:00.000-07:002006-06-30T09:52:00.000-07:00On another note, when my grandfather, who was not ...On another note, when my grandfather, who was not a particularly religious man, was very ill, one day he started talking like he was having a conversation. It sounded like he was playing cards (a favorite past-time of his). My grandmother had interjected and asked with whom he was having a conversation. He said he was playing with my dad, Bernie and another man (who had never all played cards together before, and were all deceased). My grandfather died later that night and my family knew that he was already in good hands on the other side. I've heard a number of other stories like this and I don't think that it is so hard for the soul to relinquish the body once it has finished its job. <BR/>On the other hand, if it is so important for the body to be gone sooner, so that the soul can disengage, then why aren't Jews cremated?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17567408.post-1151659785216677182006-06-30T02:29:00.000-07:002006-06-30T02:29:00.000-07:00I did some research:"Nonetheless, the Reform movem...I did some research:<BR/><BR/>"Nonetheless, the Reform movement permits mausoleum entombment. The Conservative position is a bit trickier. "One can go back in Jewish history and find that Jewish burials in crypts and mausoleums were, in fact, permitted," said Rabbi Joel Meyers, executive vice president of the movement's Rabbinic Assembly. "What happened over time was that the practice became to only bury in ground and that became the tradition really of most of the people who came from northern Europe. This tradition became the overwhelming tradition of Jews.""<BR/><BR/>http://www.forward.com/issues/2002/02.10.25/news6.html<BR/><BR/>So, a reform rabbi and some conservative rabbis would have respected her wish to be buried next to her husband in the crypt. Your choice for her was based on your interpretation of the law and tradition. You should have respected her choice.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17567408.post-1151658790087676652006-06-30T02:13:00.000-07:002006-06-30T02:13:00.000-07:00You didn't address my main point, which is your vi...You didn't address my main point, which is your view of what is best is just your opinion, and it could be reinterpreted in the future.<BR/><BR/>I am not an expert in the Moussaoui case, so I cannot comment on the behavior of his lawyers. I do know that defendants have the right to represent themselves, even in capital punishment cases, provided they are mentally competent.<BR/><BR/>Concerning doctors, adult patients have the legal right to deny any and all treatment for themselves. Doctors, pharmacists and others can deny treatment for their own religious or other reasons but only if another doctor or pharmacist is available to provide that treatment. Again, the patient's choice must be respected.<BR/><BR/>If your bubbe had consulted another rabbi she might have received different advice. Or, as I stated above, future rabbis might conclude it makes no difference where someone is buried. <BR/><BR/>You are an intelligent man and you must surely understand that Jewish law and ritual, like all law and ritual, are continually being reinterpreted and changing over time. You really have no idea what God intended, and whether he really prefers burial in the ground over burial in a crypt.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17567408.post-1151657228404740432006-06-30T01:47:00.000-07:002006-06-30T01:47:00.000-07:00Anon: please cite any source - legal, ethical or m...Anon: please cite any source - legal, ethical or moral - that states that a doctor must administer a medicine or treatment that he personally believes to be harmful to the patient. <BR/><BR/>No conscientious healer, be he a medical doctor, acupuncturist, chiropractor or shaman, would ever do such a thing. <BR/><BR/>According to you, <A HREF="http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/04/22/terror/main690284.shtml" REL="nofollow">these lawyers</A> acted inethically and in fact illegally. Is that correct?Rabbi Seinfeldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09519288133566248280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17567408.post-1151656940783553232006-06-30T01:42:00.000-07:002006-06-30T01:42:00.000-07:00I just read your last two paragraphs. It is only ...I just read your last two paragraphs. It is only your interpretation that you would have acted cruelly if you followed your bubbe's wishes. In the future rabbis may reinterpret the law and conclude that burial in a crypt is equally acceptable. In that case, you would be the one who acted cruelly. We should never assume we know what is best for someone else.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17567408.post-1151656325530802262006-06-30T01:32:00.000-07:002006-06-30T01:32:00.000-07:00No, the doctor and the lawyer can provide their ad...No, the doctor and the lawyer can provide their advice but in the end the choice is for the patient and the client to make. This is required under U.S. law. I believe it is also ethically and morally correct.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17567408.post-1151653145757057992006-06-30T00:39:00.000-07:002006-06-30T00:39:00.000-07:00Anon: Since when do we do to others according to t...Anon: Since when do we do to others according to their wishes when we believe that doing so is detrimental to them? If an unconscious patient left written instructions to have a controversial treatment that the doctor in charge believes to be harmful, should he administer it, if he believes a different treatment is beneficial? If a client expressly asks his lawyer to file a motion that the lawyer believes to be harmful while a helpful motion is available, should he not act in the best interest of his client?<BR/><BR/>Did you follow the Moussaoui trial? Did you find that his lawyers acted wrongly when they ignored his instructions and did their best to save his life?<BR/><BR/>Your conclusion would have us act cruelly. Better to abstain than to violate one's principles.Rabbi Seinfeldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09519288133566248280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17567408.post-1151651090202791402006-06-30T00:04:00.000-07:002006-06-30T00:04:00.000-07:00I mourn your loss but think it was wrong not to bu...I mourn your loss but think it was wrong not to bury her in the crypt, if that is what you did. If you did not follow her instruction you interpreted her wish to fit your view of reality. In fact, you only think you know what is best based on your interpretation of Jewish teachings, and this is just your opinion. She asked for what she wanted, and her express instruction should have been followed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com